October 23, 2006
Some debate on Garth Turner...
From: [Name Withheld]
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 18, 2006 11:07:25 AM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: (cyf-talk) Garth Turner Suspended...
A day that a lot of us grassroots Conservatives have been waiting for has finally come: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061018/turner_suspended_061018/20061018?hub=TopStories&s_name=
Garth Turner was suspended, as CTV reports today, from the Ontario Conservative, and national Conservative caucuses. The story is naming Garth's blog and his inability to keep meeting items confidential as the reasons why he was kicked out. Hopefully, regardless of whether he is allowed back in or not down the road, this will serve as a slice of humble pie for Garth. He's grown far too cocky since the days of his crusade to "return democracy to Halton," and needs to learn to be respectful to all views that are held within our party and to it's ways of doing buisness, even if he doesn't agree with them, if he wants to wear our jersey.
***************
From: [Name Withheld]
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 18, 2006 8:31:28 PM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: (cyf-talk) Re: Garth Turner Suspended...
Oh yes, it's about time we Conservatives came around to the realization that this democracy business is too troublesome to put up with.
For the record, I also found that Garth could be irritating at times and I don't think that his approach was one that would make him eligible for cabinet. But unless you can prove that he was revealing secret info with the pure intent of harming the CPC (thus far, I've seen nothing. Rob Anders and Scott Reid could probably do more damage in their sleep), I think kicking him out of caucus was a harsh, unecessary and totally disproportionate response.
I find it quite amusing that you think the one of the best reasons for kicking Garth out of caucus for expressing his controversial views was "that he needs to learn to be respectful to all views that are held within our party." His views, of course, would be the exception. But by all means, let's kick out people who aren't respectful of all views held within the party. You could start with the PM, the P.M.O., half the cabinet, most of the National Council, a good portion of the caucus, etc. etc. etc.
When I read statements like that, when I see the self-proclaimed party of democratic reform crack down on people who try to live up to that ideal, and when I see the crap that's been going on recently in my own region of the country as various little cliques get their sniff of power and start screwing everyone else over in order to get in first, I come to the conclusion that ethically and morally, we are probably no better than the Liberals. I also realize more and more that it isn't hard work, commitment and experience that determines one's success in politics (whatever the party), but ass-kissing, connections, and being in the right place at the right time.
*****************
From: [Name Withheld]
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 18, 2006 9:59:46 PM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: (cyf-talk) Re: Garth Turner Suspended...
Maybe you don't recall Garth musing how Christian activists (of which we have plenty in the party) are "flowers of evil." Garth defended his comments (and never apologized) by saying that the statement was from a French play, and taken out of context, but what kind of uproar would we hear if Stockwell Day ever suggested that homosexuals were "blind leading the blind," for example? If you make suggestive statements like that, expect flack. Turner also committed himself to breaking one of our party's 5 priorities in March, would constantly report on happenings as he heard about them, and if you really want damning evidence, check out Stephen Taylor's blog tonight! You know darn well that we celebrate a diversity of opinions in this party; Garth didn't and that's why I'm pleased to see him out now.
******************
From: [Name Withheld]
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 19, 2006 7:47:08 AM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: (cyf-talk) Re: Garth Turner Suspended...
[unidentified persons], et al.
I just read Stephen Taylor's blog. The incident mentioned there is a very ambiguous one, (he essentially lets his constituents in on the super-secret info that there was an "audible sigh" in the caucus room when Jim Prentice announced how much money had been earmarked for Kelowna-related spending. He then went on to say that government lawyers and bureaucrats were pushing everyone to go ahead with that spending - not exactly an earth shattering revelation, as that's what any reasonable observer would expect them to do). Moreover, Garth apparently changed the post in question shortly thereafter, in order to comply with a request from the Party Whip.
I have yet to see any hard evidence that Garth breached confidentiality, leaked secrets on his blog, or otherwise spread information that was meant to harm the CPC. In fact, one could easily question to what degree there EVEN IS discussion of confidential gov't secrets in caucus, as from what we've seen of the Harper gov't, and the Harper opposition, the tendancy is that election platforms, major announcements, changes in policy, etc. will not be known outside the PMO/formerly OLO, and among a few key players until they are intended for general consumption by the public.
The definition of a maverick or renegade that I always had involved someone who frequently voted against the party line or someone who, like Larry Spencer or Carolyn Parrish, made statements that were so embarassing and destructive to the party, and so at odds with current policy, that they simply had to be expelled. Garth didn't do any of those things.
Sure, he could be critical at times, he went out of his way to emphasize his personal connection with his constituents over his loyalty to the party, he kept a blog in which points of view other than our own were discussed, but there is really nothing in what he has done or said that exceeds what used to be the norm in the Reform/CA, or what was the norm in the Clark/Mulroney PC's, and what is the norm in other representative assemblies worldwide, like the British Parliament (which has loads of Carolyn Parrishes and Larry Spencers that the party leaders can do bugger-all about), or the U.S. Congress.
Unless I actually hear a coherent argument otherwise (and for that matter I would like to hear a coherent argument as to why we decided to expel any M.P. when we have such a fragile minority), from the people who are actually responsible for the expulsion, the only thing I can conclude is that this was done because Garth bucked the the distinctly Canadian tradition of all powerful, autocratic Prime Ministers, parliamentary caucuses forced to submit to iron discipline, and political parties that value the ability to shut up and follow orders in a representative over free thought and loyalty to one's constituents. We are just as much a part of that tradition as the Liberals we used to criticize for doing the same.
******************
From: [Name Withheld]
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 19, 2006 9:28:42 AM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: (cyf-talk) Maverick MP Garth Turner suspended from Conservative caucus
This seems pretty clear:
http://www.stephentaylor.ca/archives/000696.html
-K
*******************
From: [Name Withheld]
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 19, 2006 11:36:23 AM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: (cyf-talk) Interesting Video
http://www.garth.ca/weblog/
I'm not sure if anyone's posted this yet, but this is his response to what happened, before the press conference.
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 18, 2006 11:07:25 AM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: (cyf-talk) Garth Turner Suspended...
A day that a lot of us grassroots Conservatives have been waiting for has finally come: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061018/turner_suspended_061018/20061018?hub=TopStories&s_name=
Garth Turner was suspended, as CTV reports today, from the Ontario Conservative, and national Conservative caucuses. The story is naming Garth's blog and his inability to keep meeting items confidential as the reasons why he was kicked out. Hopefully, regardless of whether he is allowed back in or not down the road, this will serve as a slice of humble pie for Garth. He's grown far too cocky since the days of his crusade to "return democracy to Halton," and needs to learn to be respectful to all views that are held within our party and to it's ways of doing buisness, even if he doesn't agree with them, if he wants to wear our jersey.
***************
From: [Name Withheld]
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 18, 2006 8:31:28 PM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: (cyf-talk) Re: Garth Turner Suspended...
Oh yes, it's about time we Conservatives came around to the realization that this democracy business is too troublesome to put up with.
For the record, I also found that Garth could be irritating at times and I don't think that his approach was one that would make him eligible for cabinet. But unless you can prove that he was revealing secret info with the pure intent of harming the CPC (thus far, I've seen nothing. Rob Anders and Scott Reid could probably do more damage in their sleep), I think kicking him out of caucus was a harsh, unecessary and totally disproportionate response.
I find it quite amusing that you think the one of the best reasons for kicking Garth out of caucus for expressing his controversial views was "that he needs to learn to be respectful to all views that are held within our party." His views, of course, would be the exception. But by all means, let's kick out people who aren't respectful of all views held within the party. You could start with the PM, the P.M.O., half the cabinet, most of the National Council, a good portion of the caucus, etc. etc. etc.
When I read statements like that, when I see the self-proclaimed party of democratic reform crack down on people who try to live up to that ideal, and when I see the crap that's been going on recently in my own region of the country as various little cliques get their sniff of power and start screwing everyone else over in order to get in first, I come to the conclusion that ethically and morally, we are probably no better than the Liberals. I also realize more and more that it isn't hard work, commitment and experience that determines one's success in politics (whatever the party), but ass-kissing, connections, and being in the right place at the right time.
*****************
From: [Name Withheld]
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 18, 2006 9:59:46 PM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: (cyf-talk) Re: Garth Turner Suspended...
Maybe you don't recall Garth musing how Christian activists (of which we have plenty in the party) are "flowers of evil." Garth defended his comments (and never apologized) by saying that the statement was from a French play, and taken out of context, but what kind of uproar would we hear if Stockwell Day ever suggested that homosexuals were "blind leading the blind," for example? If you make suggestive statements like that, expect flack. Turner also committed himself to breaking one of our party's 5 priorities in March, would constantly report on happenings as he heard about them, and if you really want damning evidence, check out Stephen Taylor's blog tonight! You know darn well that we celebrate a diversity of opinions in this party; Garth didn't and that's why I'm pleased to see him out now.
******************
From: [Name Withheld]
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 19, 2006 7:47:08 AM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: (cyf-talk) Re: Garth Turner Suspended...
[unidentified persons], et al.
I just read Stephen Taylor's blog. The incident mentioned there is a very ambiguous one, (he essentially lets his constituents in on the super-secret info that there was an "audible sigh" in the caucus room when Jim Prentice announced how much money had been earmarked for Kelowna-related spending. He then went on to say that government lawyers and bureaucrats were pushing everyone to go ahead with that spending - not exactly an earth shattering revelation, as that's what any reasonable observer would expect them to do). Moreover, Garth apparently changed the post in question shortly thereafter, in order to comply with a request from the Party Whip.
I have yet to see any hard evidence that Garth breached confidentiality, leaked secrets on his blog, or otherwise spread information that was meant to harm the CPC. In fact, one could easily question to what degree there EVEN IS discussion of confidential gov't secrets in caucus, as from what we've seen of the Harper gov't, and the Harper opposition, the tendancy is that election platforms, major announcements, changes in policy, etc. will not be known outside the PMO/formerly OLO, and among a few key players until they are intended for general consumption by the public.
The definition of a maverick or renegade that I always had involved someone who frequently voted against the party line or someone who, like Larry Spencer or Carolyn Parrish, made statements that were so embarassing and destructive to the party, and so at odds with current policy, that they simply had to be expelled. Garth didn't do any of those things.
Sure, he could be critical at times, he went out of his way to emphasize his personal connection with his constituents over his loyalty to the party, he kept a blog in which points of view other than our own were discussed, but there is really nothing in what he has done or said that exceeds what used to be the norm in the Reform/CA, or what was the norm in the Clark/Mulroney PC's, and what is the norm in other representative assemblies worldwide, like the British Parliament (which has loads of Carolyn Parrishes and Larry Spencers that the party leaders can do bugger-all about), or the U.S. Congress.
Unless I actually hear a coherent argument otherwise (and for that matter I would like to hear a coherent argument as to why we decided to expel any M.P. when we have such a fragile minority), from the people who are actually responsible for the expulsion, the only thing I can conclude is that this was done because Garth bucked the the distinctly Canadian tradition of all powerful, autocratic Prime Ministers, parliamentary caucuses forced to submit to iron discipline, and political parties that value the ability to shut up and follow orders in a representative over free thought and loyalty to one's constituents. We are just as much a part of that tradition as the Liberals we used to criticize for doing the same.
******************
From: [Name Withheld]
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 19, 2006 9:28:42 AM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: (cyf-talk) Maverick MP Garth Turner suspended from Conservative caucus
This seems pretty clear:
http://www.stephentaylor.ca/archives/000696.html
-K
*******************
From: [Name Withheld]
Reply-To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: October 19, 2006 11:36:23 AM
To: cyf-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: (cyf-talk) Interesting Video
http://www.garth.ca/weblog/
I'm not sure if anyone's posted this yet, but this is his response to what happened, before the press conference.
